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Old 03-02-2014, 02:57 PM   #46
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Ivan I see what you're saying but once the maidan movement reached critical mass yanukovich had to act. he didnt attack protestors for a long time, then slipped up and had to hide. The main reason why he slipped up was because russia wasnt there for him. there are reports that putin was very busy with sochi and simply did not have time to consult with yanukovich. In a weird twist of fate it was all timing and strategy on everyone's part.

But now time and strategy is on russia's side...Ukrainians are very beaten down already and in no position to take on russia right now. if everything goes back as it was i dont even think most ukrainians would have any more strength to fight. if this is going to be a war it will not end quick. we may be in another cold war for a the long haul
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Old 03-02-2014, 03:10 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackedout95 View Post
Let me ask you, what advantage exactly was all this death and trouble for? What will the average Ukrainian have now they didn't with the former president?

Didn't nearly half of the population vote for him?
I agree, life in ukraine will not change much. The point was to stand up for what is right. yes, lots of people voted for him (technically over 50% of the population in the second round of first past the post elections, although the elections were highly contested and accusations of voter fraud were rife. voter fraud in ukraine is very prevalant and existed in the previous election won by yuschenko also)

yanukovich and his party (party of regions) has lost a tremendous amount of support because of these upheavals. they wouldn't get anywhere near 50% of the vote if there were elections tomorrow).


vitaliy, putin is distancing himself from yanukovich, and has been since his ouster. yanukovich is a peice of shit (putin has been quoted as calling him a handon). putin is very smart, i bet he'll never appear in public with yanukovich again.
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Old 03-02-2014, 03:12 PM   #48
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I agree, life in ukraine will not change much. The point was to stand up for what is right.


vitaliy, putin is distancing himself from yanukovich, and has been since his ouster. yanukovich is a peice of shit (putin has been quoted as calling him a handon). putin is very smart, i bet he'll never appear in public with yanukovich again.

yes. i heard that too. there was an inside story apparently with yanuk being on the phone with putin during the time people were getting killed on tuesday. there were reports that yanuk turned pale as a ghost and was distressed because apparently putin told him "you're on your own". putin is a cunning man, that he is...
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Old 03-02-2014, 06:29 PM   #49
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US Secretary of State John Kerry: "you don't just in 21st century behave in 19th century fashion, by invading another country on completely trumped up pretexts". Oh the noble sentiments Kerry makes on behalf of Ukrainians. You know your a pawn when the US is talking about good things about you. I like how Kerry is talking about the "democratic process" in Kiev with parliament voting to oust the president, he doesn't mention the right sector nationalists in parliament with guns. In Canada do our MPs vote with guns in their face, is this called duress? He then says how Putin should talk to the new interim government to resolve this situation. Right, the illegitimate government who is calling for terrorists to attack Russia. The whole of eastern Ukraine is in the streets with Russian flags and calling for referendums to secede from what those people on the streets say is a illegitimate government. The illegitimate government is calling for attacks against Russia and is stating that all government buildings in the East of Ukraine will have the Ukrainian flag put back up. Riiiight, there are no threats to Russians in Ukraine. Russia has ZERO legitimacy to invade another country on the pretext of protecting its people.

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Old 03-03-2014, 02:42 PM   #50
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there are no threats to russians in ukraine. none. crimea is 75% russian, who exactly is threatening these people? The other populations of crimea are 15% tatar and 10% ukrainian and other people. not one shot has been fired, not one russian person has been killed. the russian army is standing outside of ukrainian military bases trying to provoke a conflict.


putin issued an ultimatium today saying he's going to start attacking ukrainian military bases in crimea before the end of the day if ukraine doesn't surrender. he keeps trying to get ukrainian troops to shoot, and at least for now they have been smart enough not to. international opinion is firmly on ukraine's side, unfortunately, not much is happening as of yet.

i'd really like to see russia kicked out of the G8, and the visa restrictions and sanctions the US has been talking about for a week passed immediately. john kerry will be in kiev tomorrow, i have my doubts if that will have any effect though.
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Old 03-03-2014, 06:19 PM   #51
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i cant sleep.. i dont know whats gonna happen. i hope everything settles down.. its 1:30 am right now over here
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Old 03-03-2014, 06:32 PM   #52
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so is it Russian propaganda that tells us that one of the first thing the nationalists did in Ukraine was to remove language rights of Russian speakers? Are these nationalists not self proclaiming anti Russian ideology? Do they not have a history of literally fighting Russians and bragging about it to this day? **** your Ukrainian opposition leaders, they are nationalistic political scum on the same level of former Yugoslav ones. Ukrainian revolution was hijacked by the few, supported by the west.

And what international opinion? what is G7 anyway, its the west opinion. And its doesn't even matter, the G20 is the new G8 for a while. I don't see China or India or Brazil doing or saying anything what the west is. This whole thing started over a ****ing trade agreement. OVER MONEY. Western money vs eastern money. The revolution in Ukraine put into power nationalists who center their ideology over anti Russian. They immediately put into power rich convicted criminals and right wing sector loyalists. Lets not forget, when the trade agreement was being discussed before the crackdown, did Russia not offer to Ukraine and EU a tripartite trade agreement, some sort of compromise or negotiation process over trade? EU rejected that. The EU. Effectively the EU told the Ukrainian people that if you want to do trade with us, you must not do trade with Russia.
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:01 PM   #53
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south, shut the **** up. no one cares about your ridiculous opinions, no one is listening to your nonsense. seriously, just shut the **** up. you're not debating anything you're just spewing nonsense with no bearing on anything. go suck a bag of cocks.

Vitaliy, i feel you man. stay safe.

US ambassador to the UN's speech at the security council today:
"Thank you Madam President. Listening to the representative of Russia, one might think that Moscow had just become the rapid response arm of the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. So many of the assertions made this afternoon by the Russian Federation are without basis in reality.

Let’s begin with a clear and candid assessment of the facts.

It is a fact that Russian military forces have taken over Ukrainian border posts. It is a fact that Russia has taken over the ferry terminal in Kerch. It is a fact that Russian ships are moving in and around Sevastapol. It is a fact that Russian forces are blocking mobile telephone services in some areas. It is a fact that Russia has surrounded or taken over practically all Ukrainian military facilities in Crimea. It is a fact that today Russian jets entered Ukrainian airspace. It is also a fact that independent journalists continue to report that there is no evidence of violence against Russian or pro-Russian communities.

Russian military action is not a human rights protection mission. It is a violation of international law and a violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the independent nation of Ukraine, and a breach of Russia’s Helsinki Commitments and its UN obligations.

The central issue is whether the recent change of government in Ukraine constitutes a danger to Russia’s legitimate interests of such a nature and extent that Russia is justified in intervening militarily in Ukraine, seizing control of public facilities, and issuing military ultimatums to elements of the Ukrainian military. The answer, of course, is no. Russian military bases in Ukraine are secure. The new government in Kyiv has pledged to honor all of its existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. Russian mobilization is a response to an imaginary threat.

A second issue is whether the population of the Crimea or other parts of eastern Ukraine, are at risk because of the new government. There is no evidence of this. Military action cannot be justified on the basis of threats that haven’t been made and aren’t being carried out. There is no evidence, for example, that churches in Eastern Ukraine are being or will be attacked; the allegation is without basis. There is no evidence that ethnic Russians are in danger. On the contrary, the new Ukrainian government has placed a priority on internal reconciliation and political inclusivity. President Turchinov – the acting President – has made clear his opposition to any restriction on the use of the Russian tongue.

No one has to explain to Ukraine’s new government the need to have open communications, not only with leaders of the country’s Russian ethnic minority in the Crimea and elsewhere, but also with its neighbors. That is why, when the current crisis began, the government sent its former Chief of Defense to the region to try to defuse the situation. A second emissary was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada to engage in discussions. And it is why Ukrainian authorities have repeatedly reached out to Russia. Russia needs to reciprocate and begin to engage directly with the Government of Ukraine.

I note that Russia has implied a right to take military action in the Crimea if invited to do so by the prime minister of Crimea. As the Government of Russia well knows, this has no legal basis. The prohibition on the use of force would be rendered moot were sub-national authorities able to unilaterally invite military intervention by a neighboring state. Under the Ukrainian constitution, only the Ukrainian Rada can approve the presence of foreign troops.

If we are concerned about the rights of Russian-speaking minorities, the United States is prepared to work with Russia and this Council to protect them. We have proposed and wholeheartedly support the immediate deployment of international observers and monitors from the UN or OSCE to ensure that the people about whom Russia expresses such concern are protected from abuse and to elucidate for the world the facts on the ground. The solution to this crisis is not difficult to envision. There is a way out. And that is through direct and immediate dialogue by Russia with the Government of Ukraine, the immediate pull-back of Russia’s military forces, the restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity, and the urgent deployment of observers and human rights monitors, not through more threats and more distortions.

Tonight the OSCE will begin deploying monitors to Ukraine. These monitors can provide neutral and needed assessments of the situation on the ground. Their presence is urgently necessary in Crimea and in key cities in eastern Ukraine. The United States calls upon Russia to ensure that their access is not impeded.

The leadership in Moscow may well be unhappy about former President Yanukovych’s decision to flee Ukraine and move in with them. Russia may be displeased with the new government, which was approved by Ukraine’s parliament by an overwhelming majority, including members of Yanukovych’s own party. Russia has every right to wish that events in Ukraine had turned out differently, but it does not have the right to express that unhappiness by using military force or by trying to convince the world community that up is down and black is white. Russia’s calls to turn back time to implement the February 21 Agreement ring hollow. It was Yanukovych who failed to abide by the terms of that agreement, fleeing Kyiv, and ultimately Ukraine.

The United States categorically rejects the notion that the new Government of Ukraine is a “government of victors.” It is a government of the people and it is one that intends to shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that would allow Ukrainians who would prefer different leadership to have their views heard. And the United States will stand strongly and proudly with the people of Ukraine as they chart out their own destiny, their own government, their own future.

The bottom line is that, for all of the self-serving rhetoric we have heard from Russian officials in recent days, there is nothing that justifies Russian conduct. As I said in our last session, Russia’s actions speak much louder than its words. What is happening today is not a human rights protection mission and it is not a consensual intervention. What is happening today is a dangerous military intervention in Ukraine. It is an act of aggression. It must stop. This is a choice for Russia. Diplomacy can serve Russia’s interests. The world is speaking out against the use of military threats and the use of force. Ukrainians must be allowed to determine their own destiny. Thank you Madam President."
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:03 PM   #54
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Nationalists of Ukraine are now appointing former Oligarchs into governing positions of some of Ukraine's provinces.
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:14 PM   #55
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south, shut the **** up. no one cares about your ridiculous opinions, no one is listening to your nonsense. seriously, just shut the **** up. you're not debating anything you're just spewing nonsense with no bearing on anything. go suck a bag of cocks.

Vitaliy, i feel you man. stay safe.

US ambassador to the UN's speech at the security council today:
"Thank you Madam President. Listening to the representative of Russia, one might think that Moscow had just become the rapid response arm of the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. So many of the assertions made this afternoon by the Russian Federation are without basis in reality.

Let’s begin with a clear and candid assessment of the facts.

It is a fact that Russian military forces have taken over Ukrainian border posts. It is a fact that Russia has taken over the ferry terminal in Kerch. It is a fact that Russian ships are moving in and around Sevastapol. It is a fact that Russian forces are blocking mobile telephone services in some areas. It is a fact that Russia has surrounded or taken over practically all Ukrainian military facilities in Crimea. It is a fact that today Russian jets entered Ukrainian airspace. It is also a fact that independent journalists continue to report that there is no evidence of violence against Russian or pro-Russian communities.

Russian military action is not a human rights protection mission. It is a violation of international law and a violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the independent nation of Ukraine, and a breach of Russia’s Helsinki Commitments and its UN obligations.

The central issue is whether the recent change of government in Ukraine constitutes a danger to Russia’s legitimate interests of such a nature and extent that Russia is justified in intervening militarily in Ukraine, seizing control of public facilities, and issuing military ultimatums to elements of the Ukrainian military. The answer, of course, is no. Russian military bases in Ukraine are secure. The new government in Kyiv has pledged to honor all of its existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. Russian mobilization is a response to an imaginary threat.

A second issue is whether the population of the Crimea or other parts of eastern Ukraine, are at risk because of the new government. There is no evidence of this. Military action cannot be justified on the basis of threats that haven’t been made and aren’t being carried out. There is no evidence, for example, that churches in Eastern Ukraine are being or will be attacked; the allegation is without basis. There is no evidence that ethnic Russians are in danger. On the contrary, the new Ukrainian government has placed a priority on internal reconciliation and political inclusivity. President Turchinov – the acting President – has made clear his opposition to any restriction on the use of the Russian tongue.

No one has to explain to Ukraine’s new government the need to have open communications, not only with leaders of the country’s Russian ethnic minority in the Crimea and elsewhere, but also with its neighbors. That is why, when the current crisis began, the government sent its former Chief of Defense to the region to try to defuse the situation. A second emissary was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada to engage in discussions. And it is why Ukrainian authorities have repeatedly reached out to Russia. Russia needs to reciprocate and begin to engage directly with the Government of Ukraine.

I note that Russia has implied a right to take military action in the Crimea if invited to do so by the prime minister of Crimea. As the Government of Russia well knows, this has no legal basis. The prohibition on the use of force would be rendered moot were sub-national authorities able to unilaterally invite military intervention by a neighboring state. Under the Ukrainian constitution, only the Ukrainian Rada can approve the presence of foreign troops.

If we are concerned about the rights of Russian-speaking minorities, the United States is prepared to work with Russia and this Council to protect them. We have proposed and wholeheartedly support the immediate deployment of international observers and monitors from the UN or OSCE to ensure that the people about whom Russia expresses such concern are protected from abuse and to elucidate for the world the facts on the ground. The solution to this crisis is not difficult to envision. There is a way out. And that is through direct and immediate dialogue by Russia with the Government of Ukraine, the immediate pull-back of Russia’s military forces, the restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity, and the urgent deployment of observers and human rights monitors, not through more threats and more distortions.

Tonight the OSCE will begin deploying monitors to Ukraine. These monitors can provide neutral and needed assessments of the situation on the ground. Their presence is urgently necessary in Crimea and in key cities in eastern Ukraine. The United States calls upon Russia to ensure that their access is not impeded.

The leadership in Moscow may well be unhappy about former President Yanukovych’s decision to flee Ukraine and move in with them. Russia may be displeased with the new government, which was approved by Ukraine’s parliament by an overwhelming majority, including members of Yanukovych’s own party. Russia has every right to wish that events in Ukraine had turned out differently, but it does not have the right to express that unhappiness by using military force or by trying to convince the world community that up is down and black is white. Russia’s calls to turn back time to implement the February 21 Agreement ring hollow. It was Yanukovych who failed to abide by the terms of that agreement, fleeing Kyiv, and ultimately Ukraine.

The United States categorically rejects the notion that the new Government of Ukraine is a “government of victors.” It is a government of the people and it is one that intends to shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that would allow Ukrainians who would prefer different leadership to have their views heard. And the United States will stand strongly and proudly with the people of Ukraine as they chart out their own destiny, their own government, their own future.

The bottom line is that, for all of the self-serving rhetoric we have heard from Russian officials in recent days, there is nothing that justifies Russian conduct. As I said in our last session, Russia’s actions speak much louder than its words. What is happening today is not a human rights protection mission and it is not a consensual intervention. What is happening today is a dangerous military intervention in Ukraine. It is an act of aggression. It must stop. This is a choice for Russia. Diplomacy can serve Russia’s interests. The world is speaking out against the use of military threats and the use of force. Ukrainians must be allowed to determine their own destiny. Thank you Madam President."
I have theory and models that I can apply to how people like you believe what you believe and how you act. Do you have one for me, or I am just "spewing nonsense" as you say. Do not be angry. Like Morpheus in the Matrix said, after a certain age it becomes very dangerous to free a mind.


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Old 03-03-2014, 07:29 PM   #56
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you have no understanding of policy, politics, foreign affairs, rational debate and are an insane conspiracy theorist whose opinion is shared by no one. maybe you'll start telling me about the illuminati and aliens next.
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:32 PM   #57
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you have no understanding of policy, politics, foreign affairs, rational debate and are an insane conspiracy theorist whose opinion is shared by no one. maybe you'll start telling me about the illuminati and aliens next.
so you say
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Old 03-04-2014, 01:04 AM   #58
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If the ambassadors have already been pulled from russia that means everyone knows there will be an attack. This is going to get Bosnia/Croatia ugly IMO

http://news.sky.com/story/1220272/uk...reat-confusion
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:49 PM   #59
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No one probably saw the live press conference Putin had yesterday at 6am, Ill try to find the video later. But in essence Putin summarizes this entire thread nicely.

For Putin a constitutionally elected president can be replaced in 3 ways. Death, resignation, and parliamentary impeachment (which is lengthy process).
For Putin, he saw the president of Ukraine give positive responses to negotiation with opposition, which cultivated in the February 21st agreement, signed by Russian representative, Ukrainian president, opposition, France, Germany, Poland. This agreement gave what the opposition wanted, restrictions on Ukrainian president power, the implementation of 2004 constitution, early parliamentary and presidential elections and very importantly agreement from opposition to stop occupation of government buildings.

Well we know what happened. Opposition, at least some groups, did not comply. Instead violence broke out between police and these groups, which led to the fleeing of the president due to threats against his life. Quickly there after protestors with guns stormed into parliament and took it over.

So to Putin, who is interpreting Ukrainian law correctly, sees no legitimate authority in Ukraine until elections are held. To that goal, he has called upon forces already stationed in Crimea to defend the Crimean people and authorities. Authorities in Crimea which were elected in 2010. Let me emphasize there is zero evidence of Russian troops crossing Ukrainian border to bolster the Crimean. As for Ukrainian bases in Crimea being surrounded by soldiers, these soldiers are militia, although western media is constantly pointing out how organized and geared these militia are and thus must be Russian forces. In addition to this in the Crimea, Ukrainian forces have been switching sides and pledging oaths to Crimea.

Now Putin has reserved the right to send in additional Russian troops if Russians and Russian security interests are threatened. So it will be upon the interim government authorities to not threaten Russians in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. If this status quo can be preserved, then hopefully people will have free will to have fair elections and referendums soon.

As for the threats against Russians and Russian interests. It is not hard to figure out. Interim government comes to power and immediately curbs Russian language rights, takes away laws forbidding Nazi symbolism, frees convicted criminals who become the new rich opposition, put into power oligarchs to govern Eastern Ukrainian provinces, target police and their families who were just following their duty and are being harassed/targeted. On top of all this, this group is supported by the west, which would love to have Ukraine in the NATO and to have Ukraine wheat and high tech sectors.

This will not be another Yugoslav civil war. Russia's legal position and justification for entrenching Crimea isn't anything bad that western media and officials tells us. The onus for starting something is now on the new powers in Kiev, if they start shit in eastern and southern Ukraine then it probably will be followed by Putin's order to send in troops to those regions.
The media hysteria over this whole situation is really serving to enflame the conflict between west and east, and to make any statements and actions the west take look legitimate. It is like the Cold War all over again. This time however we can look at western news and then look at eastern news, and decide for ourselves. Personally I watch RT news for this situation because they have some castors who really love to rip western media a new one everyday. And they love to point out the list of hypocrisy when the US dares to pretend it is a champion of sovereign rights.

As for the sources that give the news to western media, most come from Ukrainian TV. So if Ukrainian TV reports Russian troops coming over the border en-masse then western media picks it up. Medias defense for wrong information, just like in Iraq and any other time, is "we have the duty to provide the current information available to us and to let the viewer decide". Mean while us viewers are looking at the news as if its all fact checked and truthful. Now I don't know about you guys, but if some news is saying 16,000 troops are crossing the border then that's like an invasion and its important to be right about. Well that 16,000 number comes from the already stationed troops in Crimea who have fortified that peninsula. Pretty different scenario?

To give you a sense of the western media. There is a BBC news site titled http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26424738
" Russia 'demands surrender' of Ukraine's Crimea forces"
Russia here sounds like a bloodthirsty invader for sure.
The second sentence of this article is
"However, Interfax news agency later quoted a Russian spokesman denying that any ultimatum had been issued.".
The rest of the article you can read yourself, but it does nothing to confirm the titles impression. It immediately goes onto to providing its interpretation of what led to this conflict, what the west is saying...etc. Now imagine the average person like us going through this situation. We see that kind of title, which is a bold statement, and we think what? Personally I first though how stupid Russia is for giving an ultimatum but then reading it I found no evidence of it. This same sort of BS and manipulation of the masses to favor the west is going on all the time and in every article.

What people need to decide.
Is the president of Ukraine still the only legitimate leader according to Ukrainian constitution?
Is the interim government legitimate in putting forth policies it wants?
Is it OK for Russian forces already in Crimea to fortify Crimea?

Other more important questions are who are the people now in power in Kiev and who are they putting into power. I understand Ukrainians peoples desire for change but I also know they see oligarchs as part of the problems they experience. Depending on how well Ukrainian TV is at manipulation, I would like to hope that come election time the current people in power see themselves without any.
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Old 03-04-2014, 10:12 PM   #60
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That is a lot more like it. although i still disagree with you very strongly, you're at least framing the argument in a somewhat reasonable way.

Is the president of Ukraine still the only legitimate leader according to Ukrainian constitution?

The president abandoned his post and has been charged with murder. Ukraine has a standing army of 130000, are you trying to tell me he was worried his army couldn't protect him from 1000 protesters of which a FEW might have had real guns? c'mon man.

Is the interim government legitimate in putting forth policies it wants?

These policies are being put forth by the parliment. The democratically elected parliment. No new members have been appointed since the upheavals. Why is the parliment suddenly null and void because the president is no longer in power? c'mon man.

Is it OK for Russian forces already in Crimea to fortify Crimea?

it is not, this is expressly against the treaty russia has with ukraine. FYI putin has denied any of these are russian troops, apparently its all "local militias" now. suuuuuuuuuuuuuure.



a few considerations:

the crimean population is nearly 2 million people, almost all of whom are very pro-russian. if (once) crimea becomes a part of russia, those two million people will no longer vote in ukraine. It will be very difficult for a pro russian party to get 50% of the vote (pop 44 million) if they suddenly lose 2 million of their supporters. If donetsk and kharkiv and their oblasts' also go to russia, no pro-russian candidate will stand a chance in ukraine, simply because of gerrymandering.

If ukraine defaults on its debts (i strongly think it should, the only reason not to is to prevent russia from cutting off the gas, which they will do or will threaten to do at every juncture anyway) the national debt will be reduced by 2BN. If the US actually comes up with another billion, this would temporarily resolve ukraine's impending financial crisis.

Putin is now on his back foot because of the combined western/european condemnation of his actions. He's backpeddling. But even a pro-russian person like you has to concede that that taking over border posts and military bases in ukraine for the purpoted reason of "security" is ridiculous. No russian person was ever under threat in crimea, and if they were, it would be from partisans, not the ukrainian national army.

Also there are recordings online of russian warships issuing ultimatums. just because putin said it didn't happen doesn't mean it actually didn't happen.


so far i'm very proud of ukraine. we've learned from shakashvilli's mistakes. first one to shoot, loses.



and arek, it can get real bad, real fast. but it wont really get that bloody unless russia tries to take over all of ukraine. russia has a standing army of about a half million, but more than half of those are conscripts. conscripts are not going to willingly shoot at people who look like them, are the same religion and speak the same language. if russia turns this conflict hot, it will probably be short. they'll attack and seize military targets in the parts of ukraine where the population wont rise up against them. the rest of ukraine is not conquerable. you'd have to carpet bomb the Carpathian mountains, cause that's where all the ukrainian patriots will be, in trees with their sniper rifles. (the fins taught us how to deal with invading soviet armies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

i spoke with my family in ukraine today in lviv and rivne. everyone is stockpiling food, there are lines at the hospital of people waiting to give blood, army recruitment centres are packed with volunteers. you have to admire a people that's gotten ****ed every time we've stood up and fought, and is still willing to fight and die some more.
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Last edited by propr'one; 03-04-2014 at 10:28 PM.
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